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Zev Shandalov

Keren Davidoff

Fostering homosexual families as a normative haredi family structure? Or maybe it's just that the women have to be out acutally WORKING (r"l) to support all these freeloading men.

Shira Pasternak Be'eri

@[621225917:2048:Shoshanna Keats-Jaskoll]

Keren B Heyn

That's a very strange response from you, since showing two men sitting with a small boy promotes a same sex relationship or perhaps pedophilia.

Ora Wax Aaron

Just when you thought things couldn't get any crazier...

Hannah Bacharach

This is going way too far. Why not just modestly dressed women? Seriously, how do these people go out on the street? I can't imagine a mindset like this can lead to anything good.

Naomi Engelberg

Just have pictures of the items on sale without models of any gender.

Jere Esral

Someone told them that it was a good business move. I figure that since the women in the catalogs in Muslim countries probably appear covered in black from head to toe, this isn't a stretch for them.

Wendy Derovan

I guess that they will be shocked when they go to shop and actually see women in the stores. Makes me want to do my purchasing elsewhere!

Beth Raz

I think this is an act meant to be sensitive to a subset of their clientele. Honestly doesn't need to be made into more then it is...

Hannah Bacharach

I was trying to find images of that. Maybe they just use rooms without people in them.

Zev Shandalov

I'll tell you why I disagree...they have a subset of clientele that is gay; a subset that is trans; a subset that is...l.well, you get the idea. The issue here is that catering to that subset is demeaning to women...No, I do not believe they did it purposely to demean women...but it does...IMHO

Eve Finkelstein

At Coffix in Ramat Bet Shemesh they have taken the next step on the slippery slope and don't hire women because they say it is a "mehadrin branch" . The message is clear women are not kosher..

Bracha Osofsky

That "subset" of clientele see real, live women every single day and manage to survive. And since IKEA doesn't have online ordering, they'll actually see them in the store, too.

Jere Esral

@[1050890816:2048:Hannah Bacharach] It would be my preference to see empty rooms then ones with a haradi man feeding the kids (which isn't the general reality).

Keren Davidoff

Just working on potential explanations for why there are no women in the family scenes.

Michael Lipkin

OK, Rabbi, I'm going to surprise you. If this were the only catalog they made then there would be an issue. But if they, as a private company, want to go to the expense, and it's a great expense, of creating a special catalog to target a specific market I'm not sure I see the problem.

Zev Shandalov

:) You always keep me guessing...I say again, that they are a business and they have a right to do what they can to drum up more biz and target a market...no problem with that...BUT, when that target marketing demeans and cheapens (and denigrates) nearly 50% of the population then that is not acceptable IMHO. No, they did not make the catalog for THAT purpose. But, in the end, the result is the same. \

Avrohom M. Alter

@[701265731:2048:Zev Shandalov] - Rabbi, with GREAT respect for you, I must respectfully disagree. I think the absence of women in the pictures is being misconstrued.

A furniture catalog should have nothing to do with the people props used to sell the product.

Leaving women out of pictures (even if only to attract potential clientele who choose to not gaze upon a woman other than their wife) is not intended to demean women as a group/gender, and they are not cheapened by NOT being included. There is no subliminal message being suggested that women are anything less than men (which of course we all know they are not!) simply because they created an advertisement for a sub-group that is meticulous with their shmiras einayim (guarding their eyes).

Let me suggest the opposite, indeed. I remember going to a Car Show (first and only time) during bein hazmanim. I was all of 16 or 17. I was shocked at how they demeaned and cheapened women by having two or three scantily clad women hanging and lying all over the cars! (My older brother was with me - so we didnt end up staying more than a few minutes). But it was as if to say "buy this car - it's sexy! Buy this car and women will fall all over you!" etc.(like the old toothpase advertisements - brush your teeth with "name-your-brand" becasue it will give you sex appeal! THAT is demeaning and cheapening!

Now if some auto company will make a car show today sans Madison Ave direction of "bait and switch car for woman", I would not consider that a slap to women. I would say they are finally being truthful - promoting the product for its own virtues.

What about the wives of this targeted audience? Do THEY feel demeaned or cheapened in any way because their husbands refuse to look at ANY other woman? I'll bet not!

If some feel that the level of frumkeit of those who are careful at what they gaze upon - is over the top - they should have no complaints against a company that simply takes these customers choices into consideration, because the reality is in fact that there is such a large group of potential clientele.

Unless the real issue here might be "I don't like your zehirus in shmiras einayim because it leaves ME feeling somewhat self conscious that I am not at that level?

In a day and age where so many marriages are dealing with the fallout of internet porn - leaning in the opposite direction (even if it might offend highly sensitive individuals) perhaps should not be condemned.

Shoshanna Keats-Jaskoll

Exposing women and erasing women are the two sides of the same- women are sex objects coin.

Sheila Lerman Glenner

Unreal!!!

Rachel Stomel

Can't wait for the Ikea swimsuit edition

Steven Cohn

Agree 100%! not only good marketing, but great marketing, and WITHOUT demeaning anybody.

Zev Shandalov

Rav @[622945929:2048:Avrohom M. Alter]...shalom aleichem! Thanks so much for your reply. I am going to reproduce it below and make some comments. Please note that the I am going to write in capital letters only to differentiate between your words and mine and not "shouting" :)

A furniture catalog should have nothing to do with the people props used to sell the product. TRUE…SO THERE SHOULD BE NO NEED THEN FOR ANY MODELS AT ALL.

Leaving women out of pictures (even if only to attract potential clientele who choose to not gaze upon a woman other than their wife) is not intended to demean women as a group/gender, I DIDN’T SAY THEY DID THIS ON PURPOSE. RATHER, I SAW THIS AS A RESULT OF THE PRESENCE OF WOMEN and they are not cheapened by NOT being included. WITH THAT I DISAGREE. There is no subliminal message being suggested that women are anything less than men (which of course we all know they are not! AGREED 10000%  ) simply because they created an advertisement for a sub-group that is meticulous with their shmiras einayim (guarding their eyes). I FULLY GET THE IDEA AND ISSUE OF SHEMIRAS EINAYIM. BUT THERE IS A WORLDWIDE-CHASM OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WOMEN BEING USED AS SEX OBJECTS –AS YOU SAY BELOW—TO ATTRACT ETC VS BEING SHOWN IN A FAMILY SETTING IN A KITCHEN, FOR EXAMPLE.

Let me suggest the opposite, indeed. I remember going to a Car Show (first and only time) during bein hazmanim. I was all of 16 or 17. I was shocked at how they demeaned and cheapened women by having two or three scantily clad women hanging and lying all over the cars! (My older brother was with me - so we didnt end up staying more than a few minutes). But it was as if to say "buy this car - it's sexy! Buy this car and women will fall all over you!" etc.(like the old toothpase advertisements - brush your teeth with "name-your-brand" becasue it will give you sex appeal! THAT is demeaning and cheapening! WITH THIS YOU AND I ARE IN TOTAL AGREEMENT WITH NO DOUBT. OBJECTIYING A WOMAN LIKE THAT AND TREATING HER AS AN OBJECT IS WORSE THAN THIS ISSUE. BUT THAT IS A DIFFERENT ISSUE.

Now if some auto company will make a car show today sans Madison Ave direction of "bait and switch car for woman", I would not consider that a slap to women. I would say they are finally being truthful - promoting the product for its own virtues.

What about the wives of this targeted audience? Do THEY feel demeaned or cheapened in any way because their husbands refuse to look at ANY other woman? I'll bet not! IN SOME CASES YOU ARE RIGHT. HOWEVER, IF YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE POLITICAL PARTY (YES, A TINY PARTY) KNOWN AS u’VIZCHUTAN YOU WILL KNOW THAT PART OF THE BASIS OF THEIR PARTY IS A PLATFORM AGAINST THIS TYPE OF ACTION AND THESE ARE “FRUM” WOMEN FROM THE HAREDI WORLD.

If some feel that the level of frumkeit of those who are careful at what they gaze upon - is over the top - they should have no complaints against a company that simply takes these customers choices into consideration, because the reality is in fact that there is such a large group of potential clientele

Unless the real issue here might be "I don't like your zehirus in shmiras einayim because it leaves ME feeling somewhat self conscious that I am not at that level? THEY COULD PUT WOMEN IN THE CATALOG DRESSED WITH SHEITEL AND HAT—EXACTLY AS THEY ARE SEEN IN THEIR STORES, HOMES, SMACHOT, ETC ETC ETC. THERE WOULD BE NO LACK OF TZNIUT IN THAT. IF THAT IS פוגע IN THEIR SHEMIRAT EYNAYIM, THEN HOW DO THEY LEAVE THEIR HOME? HOW DO THEY GO TO THE STORE. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT BIKINI CLAD WOMEN. I AM TALKING ABOUT WOMEN DRESSED AS THEY WOULD IN THE VERY NEIGHBORHOODS IN WHICH THEY LIVE.

In a day and age where so many marriages are dealing the fallout of internet porn - leaning in the opposite direction (even if it might offend highly sensitive individuals) perhaps `should not be condemned. AGAIN, ONE NEED NOT FIGHT AGAINST PORN BY ERASING WOMEN ALTOGETHER.

AGAIN--THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING IN TOUCH !

Hannah Bacharach

That definitely wouldn't offend anyone. What next though. Men only, shopping hours?

Shellie Berman Grafstein

is that not against labor laws? disgusting and so sad

Michael Lipkin

The only response I would make is that in THAT market most of that 50% has chosen, or at least accepts, their "role". And thus does not perceive it as denigrating. Just like we don't want them imposing their ideology on us, we shouldn't impose ours on them. And also, there's a "glass house" issue here. As enlightened as we may perceive ourselves, viewed from an outside perspective our women could be seen as "denigrated".

Sharon Matten

Here is my (probably unpopular) thought: In a day and age when there is BDS and so much anti semitism isn't it terrific that Ikea is in Israel and actually has a business model for the charedi community? More "centrist" communities may not love the idea of a gender specific catalog but looking at the bigger picture I'm just happy that they thought of it at all.

Zev Shandalov

See my comments above and also note they are pulling the catalog. Not sure how ''big'' an issue this is in the States but.erasing women is an epedemic here

Zev Shandalov

UPDATE!

http://www.timesofisrael.com/ikea-israel-apologizes-for-female-free-catalog/

Lar Cotral

poor zev - no tolerance of other religious groups- bigotry at its worst!

Lar Cotral

poor eve, not understanding enough about Judaism in general and certainly about the haredi community. If any business wants to maintain a sensitivity to a verylarge and growing community with specific requirements, they can do as they please. If they banned all catalogues with just men, you could complain. IKEA has been duped into thinking the catalog puts women down. only intolerant and ignorant feminuts and men would see this as an issue. For a business strategy, Ikea is telling me that with my 8 kids and 28 grandchildren, they want our business. capitulating to a small, crying out loud group of bigots shows the lack of professionalism IKEA has and unless they apologize to the haredis for an unprofessional reply, they have lost our business in a split second. Cowardice and ignorance have no say in business policy. Your type eve would say nothing if IKEA targeting the muslims in Israel with a gender appropriate catalog- but pick on your own people with insensitivity - that's a shame.

Lar Cotral

sorry, skj, your intolerance and lack of understanding of other jewish groups makes you no maven of this issue. If you are really a business person, and had any degree of understanding, this would not be an issue. If you think women are sex objects in the traditional Jewish world, you are further out of orbit and out of place. this catalog did not replace any others and targeted the charedi population- no one has any reason to complain unless you are a feminut.

Shoshanna Keats-Jaskoll

I've no idea who you are and your personal attacks are ... unhelpful. I have researched and written on this issue. I do in fact know what I'm talking about. Shavua Tov

David Ben Meir

What's wrong?

Rochelle Treister

Poor Lar - no tolerance of allowing women to be shown in their normal environment in their normal dress. If haredi men can see women on the streets of their towns, then they can see them dressed the same way in their catalogs. 'nuf said.