Politics, Culture and Market
John Ringo
So about the whole Scalzi 'thing.'
Scalzi was pissing me off even before getting a Hugo for a novel so remarkably unremarkable it would barely have made it to paperback in the 1970s. Nothing against it, it's a fun, simple, mindless, read from all I've gathered. But it's not exactly Stranger in a Strange Land or Nightfall.
Scalzi is president of SFWA (sort of the writer's union for SF authors) or whatever they're calling it this week. As president instead of, oh, I dunno, working to get better generalized terms for new authors, ensuring contracts are upheld with publishers, maybe, someday, getting a fucking health care insurer for all us authors who don't have health insurance, he'd been concentrating on IMPORTANT matters like making sure all characters were called s/he and women weren't being harassed at cons (which happens and is up to the convention people to manage) and... The list of 'not-core-issue' kerfuffles he's been involved in as president makes you think hes' president of ACORN not an SF union. And it was not only driving out members (or they were expelling members for 'bad-speak') it was making the group as irrelevant as the opinion of an abyssal nematode.
But I wasn't the only one that Scalzi was pissing off. And that's sort of the important point for Scalzi.
In Double Star, another Hugo Winning novel and one that while simple on its face truly deserved one, the main character, an actor, mentally muses why he never got into politics. His father and heavy-handed mentor advised against it. 'The press you get is never good for your career.'
That can be true and not so true in the modern era. Depends on your market and their culture. So we now have all three of the words in the title. We begin.
There are two ways to view politics, as a cultural item and as a 'politics' item and they have two different names associated with them based on if you're talking to a political scientist or a sociologist. The sociological term for the culture that Scalzi is a part of and supports is 'modern progressive' (a really stupid oxymoron and in my opinion incorrect on both parts. Their views are neither progressive nor modern.) The PolySci 101 version is 'Social Democrat.' People outside this group generally just call them 'Liberals.' (Which is the term I'll be using from here on out and get over it.) Or 'tree-hugging, gun-grabbing, nanny-state momma's boys.'
Which is all well and good. Free country. You go boy.
Then we start to talk about 'market.'
There are two types of market: Professional and retail.
The PROFESSIONAL market is dominated by Liberals. It is still heavily based in mid-town NYC and there are essentially no 'out of the closet' conservatives in the market. Baen is the only publisher which has 'out of the closet' conservatives working for it in SF. (There are a few in 'general' publishing since there's a market. But even most of the people who work for those imprints are Liberals. I know. I've met them. I always feel a bit like a coelocanth on display in a museum when I meet with them. Or, possibly, a velociraptor on a chain.)
Then there's the retail market.
What Scalzi has mostly written is combat science fiction. The market for combat SF, culturally, is primarily 'conservative libertarian.' People outside this group generally just call them 'Conservatives.' Or 'racist, xenophobic, homophobic gun-nuts.' 'Guns, God and Gays' as I believe Howard Dean, the poster child for Liberals, put it.
There is a third term for this group: Jacksonian. Go google it. The SF readers tend to fall into an outlier group of Jacksonian that generally doesn't care about Gays or Color. They really only give a hoot about guns.
(By the way, if you read the whole essay, Liberals are 'Wilsonians' and when you get to the bit about 'tribalism' be aware that Meade was off in one thing: Wilsonians are just as tribal. They just lie about it.)
But they do tend to have issues with many liberal tropes. They get tired of being called 'bad' for ideas that simply make sense to them. ('Why do I have to give my money to somebody who's a lazy bum?') And they've gotten to really disliking liberals of any stripe.
Which is where we start to see the issues with Scalzi suddenly not so much 'coming out of the closet' but making a splash on a variety of hot-button issues that really don't sit well with his RETAIL market. The people who actually BUY the books over the counter as opposed to market, sell and even buy them for distribution. The more books you can get a bookstore to buy, the more likely you are to sell them. So being the poster child for your commercial people is a good thing.
Pissing off the people who in the end have to actually buy the books to read.... Not so much.
And the market fraction of true 'Modern Progressives' who read combat SF is HYSTERICALLY low.
I'm well known as a 'controversial conservative author.' I didn't intend for that to happen but it did. I'm here. There's no real turning back even if I wanted to. And over the years I've managed to do two things by complete accident: Drive out some fringe members from fractions of the market I didn't really 'like' AND increase my total market share at the same time.
Huh?
Two books, more or less without my expecting it, (except in the case of Ghost) managed to drive out of my RETAIL sales both 'hardcore fundamentalist Christians' (Ghost and to a lesser extent Princess of Wands) and the tiny bit of my sales who were 'hardcore anti-religious atheists' (Princess of Wands, and those tended to also be the only fraction of my market who were 'liberals'). And yet over the one year that those books came out, my total sales jumped. Why? Well... Porn sells REALLY WELL in Kansas. That's all I'll say.
I have the same general politics as my core market. I, too, believe in the fundamental reading of the Second Amendment, that part of its fundamental purpose is to restrain a tyrannical government, I can prove historically that violence, in fact, is the ONLY thing that EVER settles anything, (just ask Hitler), I don't think anyone should be restricted by how they use their genitals or what color their skin might be but by the same token they also shouldn't get any special treatment. I'm more or less the poster child for the market. I read the market by preference before becoming an author because the majority of the authors in it seemed to see the world and the universe the way I saw the world and the universe.
Ergo, when MY politics become obvious, very few of my readers are turned off by them.
When SCALZI's politics become obvious.... Well, they probably will keep buying his books but they might wait for the cheaper versions. Or they'll decide they really aren't worth their time.
I, in other words, can keep harping on 'God, Guns and... Well, hell, I have gay characters in my books. And persons 'of color' and slews of truly capable and bad-ass women. Not sure what their third would be.
'The press you get is never good press.' With respect to the Dean, depends on your market.
I think I'll keep trying to get that press. Even if the press hates me.
:-)
Scalzi might want to think about whether he wants to be an author or a poster child.
See also the 'demotivator' I posted about winning a fight on the internet.
That is what you call a poster child.
Lloyd A Behm II
Salute.
Douglas R Brown
God, Guns, and Guts
Lloyd A Behm II
Don't be so fast to put down Gog - he might surprise you.
Hugh T. Knight
I don't buy his stuff. I buy yours. Hugo? What jumps did he make?
Thomas Mandell
Keep doing what you been doing, and I'll keep reading and buying. :)
Douglas R Brown
I just realized you churned this out in less than an hour (estimated by fb time stamp). You really can churn and burn (a good thing) when writing.
Lin Wicklund
@[606840886:2048:John Ringo], I love you. I love your mind. I love the way you put words together. (I will not mention how you look in a kilt because my husband is lying in bed next to me :-) )
Lloyd A Behm II
I will also say that this form of politization of SF is one of the reasons I quit attending Cons a long time ago -
John Ringo
Needs editing. But I inherited the ability to type fast from my mother, God bless her.
Mike Krepp
Fuck yea brother, well said!
Brad Johnson
I almost bought Redshirts a few months ago, then i read one of Scalzi's opinion pieces and decided that he really didn't want my money anyway.
John Ringo
@[1613953190:2048:Lloyd A Behm II] It's the reason I'm very careful which Cons I go to. Come to LibertyCon. You'll feel right at home. (Although there was a kerfuffle about it recently. I think it came out on 'our' side. If not... Eh, we'll make our own.)
John Ringo
@[100001499043258:2048:Brad Johnson] That's sort of my point here. When I post an opinion piece like this and it gets circulated around, my retail sales go up. (Commercial buys really don't change.) When he does, his retail sales go down. At some point he's going to have to choose or become irrelevant in terms of sales. His politics piss off the majority of his readers. Mine don't. It's like 'write what you know.'
Robert Evans
I don't think Scalzi is still president of SFWA, John. Think he recently passed it on to someone else.
Mike Krepp
It's all about polarization in the end tho.
Marc Reeve
Scalzi's books are well-represented on the Science Fiction Book Club and Book-of-the-Month Club. (Yes, I'm a member... Gotta get my new book fix somehow!) I checked this morning and you no longer have any books listed on either. Personally, I think this says more about his books than yours...
(Two pages of listings for David Weber, though... Once they get one of his books on the list they never let it go.)
(Two pages of listings for David Weber, though... Once they get one of his books on the list they never let it go.)
Robert Evans
BTW, I'm glad to see another advocate of WR Mead's Spectrum.
Cindy Barnard
and that is exactly why we continue to be your devoted fans and try to share your work with all our friends
Marc Reeve
Why not? HonorCon is happening, after all...
Brad Johnson
I've got a meme for this, but i can't post it to the comments from my phone. @[606840886:2048:John Ringo], would you mind if i dropped it on your page?
Tony Connor
If I had the money to come from Australia to a RingoCon then I would do it in an instant!
John Ringo
@[1257190805:2048:Marc Reeve] SF 'Book of the Month Club' is basically just advertising. You get approximately a penny per sale. One reason I don't really care if mine are in there or not.
Marc Reeve
Yeah, kinda figured. That's why I said it said more about his books than yours...
John Van Stry
I don't go see movies that have overly paid actors in it who insult me (kickass2 for example, I may see it when it's free, but they're not getting a dime out of me because of Jim Cary). The same goes for Scalzi now that I've heard the incredibly racist things he's had to say (though to be honest I'm not crazy about people who plagiarize other writers and steal ideas for most of their books from other writers). The thing is, I've known someone almost exactly like him, they claimed to be this big great expert, took over an organization, ran it into the ground and destroyed it. All so they could get in good with their hard core leftwing friends. And so far this Scalzi seems to be running true to form. But to be honest I don't care what happens to SFWA, I'm an indie ebook author - so I'm not allowed in.
Avi Bernshaw
This is one of the things I appreciate about you, John.
Whilst I do hate your politics, you call a spade a spade and are up front about what you believe in. Inasmuch as that, it's easy to mentally divide you as a person from the works you write. As someone that until recently was selling a lot of SF&F literature, and talking to a lot of customers, I think much of the reader disatisfaction with Scalzi that you're picking up on is is less about him being a liberal but rather because many people feel he's attempting to insert his views by stealth, much in the same way people became rapidly turned off by Scott-Card when it came to light that he supported anti-queer associations.
There is also the issue that as SF&F cease to be subcultures and become mainstream entertainment, you're going to get a lot more people who are outspoken and hope to BE the spokesperson of some sort of movement, rather than the old live-and-let-live attitude nerds of yesteryear had when it came to disagreements on subjects outside the scope of their passtimes.
Whilst I do hate your politics, you call a spade a spade and are up front about what you believe in. Inasmuch as that, it's easy to mentally divide you as a person from the works you write. As someone that until recently was selling a lot of SF&F literature, and talking to a lot of customers, I think much of the reader disatisfaction with Scalzi that you're picking up on is is less about him being a liberal but rather because many people feel he's attempting to insert his views by stealth, much in the same way people became rapidly turned off by Scott-Card when it came to light that he supported anti-queer associations.
There is also the issue that as SF&F cease to be subcultures and become mainstream entertainment, you're going to get a lot more people who are outspoken and hope to BE the spokesperson of some sort of movement, rather than the old live-and-let-live attitude nerds of yesteryear had when it came to disagreements on subjects outside the scope of their passtimes.
Marc Reeve
Robert: according to DW, Evergreen Films is in pre-production on a Honor Harrington movie.
Joshua Hocieniec
When you write your books you can accurately portray the results of political actions and their impact on the society and situation in the book. For Scalzi, when he writes the effects of his politics in a positive light it creates a cognitive dissonance among his readers.
"Old Mans War" was interesting and well written but the underlying world didn't hold up for me.
"Old Mans War" was interesting and well written but the underlying world didn't hold up for me.
Marc Reeve
(Of course, the last time a movie based on a Weber book was in pre-production, the company went bankrupt and all we got was some nifty concept art...)
Brad Johnson
Duuuude, don't jinx it
Gerry Martin
I was wondering, what kerfluffle was there about LibertyCon? I hadn't heard anything offhand. If it is something that isn't/shouldn't be talked about, then forget I asked. :D
James Cochrane
Gerry - it's something we've hoped has died down and would prefer not to resurrect, as it's easier to resolve when everyone isn't shouting about it.
Gerry Martin
James - completely understandable :), I hadn't even heard about it so it obviously hasn't hit my radar. Consider it dead and buried then.
John Ringo
I think it's over and was mostly off-line. Thing about libertycon is that it's run by people who are not just 'con professionals' but 'professional professionals'. (Brandy is an executive with TVA.) They tend to navigate these kerfuffles fairly well.
Deborah Fishburn
Actually I'm completely opposed to your politics, but I still buy your stuff because you can write. I'm not sure why you assume Scalzi's readers couldn't do the same?
Tom Farmer
It's interesting, if you examine my bookshelves for "books I've bought new" and "books I bought used." Granted, there's a fair number of, "holy shit, the ENTIRE Council War Series for $10!?" type of things in the "used books" category, but by and large the books that I go out of my way to buy new are by authors I *like,* both in terms of their stories and personally.
I buy Weber new, but I buy Card used because he's an ass. I buy Tad Williams new, but Scalzi or Gerold used because they're asses. And so on... I think I'll keep buying your stuff new whenever I can, @[606840886:2048:John Ringo]. =D
I buy Weber new, but I buy Card used because he's an ass. I buy Tad Williams new, but Scalzi or Gerold used because they're asses. And so on... I think I'll keep buying your stuff new whenever I can, @[606840886:2048:John Ringo]. =D
Stig Å. Carlsson
I think that getting your fans to attend or getting to be supporting members of Worldcon may be as important as, or even more important than selling loads of books. You get to influence the lists of eligible books etc. and then vote for your choice if it makes the list. SFWA have the Nebulas, but few really bothers to remember who wins these, except maybe the winners themselves and their publishers. Hugos counts over here in Europe, Not Nebulas. Lois nearly won a Hugo for the Ivan book, and she probably would have, except for having already won a mantlefull of them. I wouldn't even have placed Redshirts on the lists, even if i like most of what i have read by JS. Maybe the Barhangers at Baen have been too passive to really try getting involved in putting their favourites on the ballot. Forget this and go for the next year's instead!..
Jay ODell
Nicely said.
Philip S. Bolger-Cortez
I liked Redshirts, but i don't see how meta-commentary on a ~fifty year old series is Hugo-worthy. I find Scalzi to be tolerable, but I tihnk @[606840886:2048:John Ringo]'s hit it on the head-- the guy is steadily alienating his base in favor of.... what? Artistic credentials? Those have been great putting food on the table...
Great diagram of an interesting phenomenon.
Great diagram of an interesting phenomenon.
Tarn Somervell Fletcher
John, I love your books, the action, the political games, the crazy-awesomeness, etc etc.... but I loathe your politics. Why should the latter have any significant effect on the former? (except for the Last Centurion. Reading that is a totally different experience now.)
I don't get it. Can someone explain it to me?
I don't get it. Can someone explain it to me?
John Ringo
@[1611170358:2048:Stig Carlsson] The problem, as I've noted in another post, is that the people who control the ballot box of the Hugos actively prevent anyone that they don't want to receive an award getting one. That may sound 'conspiracy theory' but it's actually just speaking the truth even though people don't want to hear it. Votes for Citadel were thrown out due to 'politicking' when I hadn't even mentioned it in terms of the Hugo. Why? Because they were not going to allow someone who was a nasty conservative to get a Hugo. I seriously considered putting an afterword in one of the upcoming books asking any readers who just had the money to burn to buy an associate membership (you're not attending but you get to vote over the internet) and then telling them to 'vote their conscience.' Guarantee that the Hugo committee would throw out any vote for that book. It simply does not matter how many votes I get. And I don't really give a shit about the Hugo. I just wish that more people understood that it has no real basis except 'you're someone that the core controllers of the vote like.' 'It does not matter who controls the ballot, it only matters who controls the ballot box.' And you'll get control of the ballot box when you pry it from their cold dead hands. 'Bad people' do not get the Hugo. Ever. I am by their definition 'bad people.' As is David Drake, Weber, Williamson, even Sarah Hoyt. Bad dog, no Hugo for you. Same deal with the John Campbell award. All the votes for my John Campbell in 2001 and 2002 were thrown out because 'I'd been around forever.' When, in fact, my first book was in 2000. Why were they thrown out? I didn't toe the liberal line. Go find any conservative author who has won a Campbell or a Hugo or a Nebula since Heinlein (who wasn't that conservative.) Jim Baen never got a Hugo. Not even posthumously. Because 'bad people' don't get Hugos. I'm not bitter about this, I'm bitter about people like yourself thinking that the Hugo has anything to do with Science Fiction.
John Ringo
Clarification: The votes that were thrown out were for the nomination on Citadel as well as Live Free or Die. Thus neither got nominated. I'll take my award from the Space Frontier Foundation over the Hugo committee any day.
Tarn Somervell Fletcher
SFF has both a better acronym, *and* a better mission statement. Screw the Hugos.
Debra Laich
Are we now voting like they do in presiidential elections now?
John Ringo
Let's see. I have a Phoenix, a Georgia Fandom Award, a Pioneers of Space Award (SFF) and a Romance of the Year award. I need a Hugo why? I just wish people understood how Politicized, capital on purpose meaning 'real world' politics, it has become. If you don't speak 'good speak' your votes disappear. It's very soviet unsurprisingly.
Carlton Mckenney
Maybe DragonCon needs to start its own awards. The "Dragon" and award to books (including ebooks), films, art, costume, ... . Vote using the DCon app and badge #. Award on Monday PM?
Tank Knighton
John, I've been a fan of your books since a friend recommended them to me a while back. I've read Scalzi as well. The Old Man's War series was pretty good, I have to admit. However, when reading his blog one day, I came across a comment by him lamenting how many military science fiction writers were libertarian, and began to blast away at libertarians in general.
As a libertarian, I took it pretty damn personal. You're right about who is likely to by combat science fiction, and they trend libertarian/conservative. Going out of your way to alienate AND INSULT the politics of your most likely readers might not be the best career move. You, Larry Correia, and Michael Z. Williamson are among my favorite authors. Yet, as you point out, you guys aren't winning the awards. Frankly, most of the award winning books I've read suuuucked. I guess it was because politics factored into the winning, not the writing.
I guess that's why I've decided that I really don't care about awards in my own writing. After all, if it's not for the writing, then why bother in the first place?
As a libertarian, I took it pretty damn personal. You're right about who is likely to by combat science fiction, and they trend libertarian/conservative. Going out of your way to alienate AND INSULT the politics of your most likely readers might not be the best career move. You, Larry Correia, and Michael Z. Williamson are among my favorite authors. Yet, as you point out, you guys aren't winning the awards. Frankly, most of the award winning books I've read suuuucked. I guess it was because politics factored into the winning, not the writing.
I guess that's why I've decided that I really don't care about awards in my own writing. After all, if it's not for the writing, then why bother in the first place?
Bart Kemper
I have a National Defense Service Medal. I'm good. (and to all who have served, yes, I picked that one as its just a step above the "Rainbow" ribbon).
Tarn Somervell Fletcher
In general, politics turns otherwise intelligent people stupid (on *all* sides). It's not surprising that the thing that authors make stupid career moves about is politics. (although who knows? maybe one or two are acting rationally, and just think their politics *is* more important than their writing.)
John Ringo
Pretty much my position.
Cedar Sanderson
I bought a Scalzi book before I had any clue who he was (this is about two years ago) because I was at a con, and he was the big guy there, so I was going to have it signed, and the book was a continuation (I thought) of a series by H. Beam Piper I truly love. Well, Scalzi didn't show up for the signing, I took the book home, tried to read it, and was infuriated. One of the few books in my life I have ever *thrown away* rather than inflict it on another human being. I will not ever read another book by that man, and yes, I know many of you like Old Man's War, I probably would too. But I will not forgive Fuzzy Nation. Now, in the last few months the revelation that the man is personally a slimeball has not surprised me, based on what he did to Piper's characters.
John Ringo
Yeah. Scalzi writing in Piper's universe is the equivalent of Verhoven trying to do Starship Troopers. Oh, wait...
Bart Kemper
*snort*
Cedar Sanderson
As for LibertyCon - I was part of that kerfluffle, and this is what I think should happen. Go to the con (I'm not talking to @[606840886:2048:John], here, but to Baen fans) with your heads held high, and have a good time. Make yourselves known. Gently support the con, and let it be known that you are a Baen fan. Make your numbers known. Don't let the PC crowd take this one from us.
Bart Kemper
Too easy. I go in as a knuckledragger at OryCon and NorWesCon. Surrounded on all sides, position excellent, attack attack attack. :)
Cedar Sanderson
Well, it would be nice if LibertyCon could stay a relaxing convention, where that wasn't needed.
John Ringo
To explain that more clearly. Piper was a conservative libertarian. Pro-military, pro-gun, anti-distributionist. Scalzi is liberal, hates libertarians and conservatives, shaky on pro-mil, anti-gun and distributionist. Verhoven grew up in the Netherlands during the Occupation and anyone wearing a soldier's uniform is automatically and irredeemably evil. And he was tossed Starship Troopers and told to do the movie. (Longer story than that, but that's the gist.)
Lloyd A Behm II
@[606840886:2048:John Ringo] - Liberty Con and Dragon Con are both on my list of events to try to make in the next couple of years.
As for the rest of it, you must be doing something right if you're pissing this many people off on the other side.
As for the rest of it, you must be doing something right if you're pissing this many people off on the other side.
John Ringo
@[1210797821:2048:Cedar Sanderson] From the very little I've gotten, the 'other guys' are going to either get purged or be more or less on probation. It's not the Baen fans who are going to have to worry. I haven't gotten that officially but that seems to be how its playing out.
Bart Kemper
If you're pissing someone off on all sides, odds are you're doing pretty good, too. Partisans are so easy to pick on. Blue drazi/red drazi.
Cedar Sanderson
Good to know, @[606840886:2048:John], thank you. I had already decided I would return (barring family problems) this year. Had a WWMD? moment (M=Miriam) and realized that a Lady keeps her head high and cuts the enemy flat.
John Ringo
'Being kind to your enemy is the cruelest cut of all.'
John Ringo
That's Miriam's slogan BTW.
Cedar Sanderson
She is an amazing woman.
Bart Kemper
I'll try to make Libertycon if its July. Should be back by then.
Lloyd A Behm II
@[606840886:2048:John Ringo] - I remember seeing somewhere you were going to be at a con in Dallas next year - is that still true?
John Ringo
This year. FenCon 2013. Toastmaster.
Tank Knighton
I'm going to have to make a plan for LibertyCon at some point, it sounds like.
Bart Kemper
oh crap... I usually make Fencon but am otherwise detained.
Lloyd A Behm II
Drat - may not be able to make that one on short notice. Looks like its time to start saving for Liberty Con and Dragon Con next year.
Ray Spitz
Scalzi PO'd me so badly when bowdlerized "Little Fuzzy" in to "Fuzzy Nation" and turned Pappy Jack Holloway from a self reliant, crusty gunfighter/prospector into a wimpy disbarred lawyer, that I'll never read anything by him again.
Keith Glass
I remember running into Scalzi back when he lived in Virginia: forgot which con, likely a CapClave or the Final Disclave. I was not impressed. I think of him as the "community organizer" of SFWA. . . (evil grin)
Justin Watson
Bart: It's actually purple/green Drazi- but awesome reference.
Tank Knighton
Oh, I like that one Keith :)
Keith Glass
Justin: If only we could be Blue Drazi Leader by ripping the wig off of Debbie Wasserman-Schultz. . . . ;)
Justin Watson
Heh.
William Bacon
Note to self; Look up Sarah Hoyt's work. Thanks for the head's up.
Tank Knighton
Like you had anything better to do, @[100003113752856:2048:Josh] :P
Keith Glass
Josh: even a douche has a USE. . . .
William Bacon
@Keith: Pet Rock, perhaps?
Herb Geozos
Once upon a time I liked Scalzi, Old Man's War was entertaining. Red Shirts was a fun romp but read more like fan-fic than something Hugo-worthy. He lost me as a paying customer with the bullshite they pulled with The Human Division. Buy the serial, but buy it AGAIN if you want the WHOLE story. Nope. Then I started seeing him writing opinion pieces and decided he did NOT need my money. I also noticed he's doing a lot of over-priced short-story work through Amazon; nope, not buying that line of crap again.
Here's a wild idea: if you are a professional writer, try putting out some product like @[606840886:2048:John Ringo] or @[100000028145065:2048:Larry Correia] or some of the other professionals you are having opinions about...
Here's a wild idea: if you are a professional writer, try putting out some product like @[606840886:2048:John Ringo] or @[100000028145065:2048:Larry Correia] or some of the other professionals you are having opinions about...
Lloyd A Behm II
Gee, thanks Josh. I went and read that post that you discussed. Now I somehow feel bad about not being a white male.
T.J. Parmele
Well said!
I must admit, the first book I read of yours was "Ghost" and it was one I had to force myself to finish since it wasn't QUITE what I was expecting. I re-read it, and blew through it. I've since gone on to read pretty much anything you have written. My favorite of yours is Centurion.
I must admit, the first book I read of yours was "Ghost" and it was one I had to force myself to finish since it wasn't QUITE what I was expecting. I re-read it, and blew through it. I've since gone on to read pretty much anything you have written. My favorite of yours is Centurion.
Sanford Begley
Bart Kemper Libertycon 27 will be June 27-29 2014
John Branch
I love you man. I mean, manly "let's go shoot some guns, blow up some shit, then retire to the front porch for beers and cigars and bitching about politics" love. I've been reading Baen stuff since I was a teenager. I also really used to like Scalzi. But the more I read his blog, the less I liked his work (the same goes for Charles Stross). Mainly because more and more, I saw his liberal politics leaking into his work. And given that his politics are somewhat antithetical to mine (definitely Jacksonian) I got to the point (about 5 years ago) where I couldn't take it anymore. So, he went from having a guy who bought his books the first day they came out, to having a guy who will never buy one of his books again, and who will actively encourage his friends to do the same.
Speaking of which, I bought Under a Graveyard Sky on it's first day. I'm ready for the next one :)
Voting with my wallet.
Speaking of which, I bought Under a Graveyard Sky on it's first day. I'm ready for the next one :)
Voting with my wallet.
Keith Glass
@William Bacon. Pothole Filler, I'd say. Not the job, the actual filling material. . .
Jacob Hulker
I don't have to agree with a authors politics to enjoy the work but I enjoy it more when I agree with them. It is obvious that you have a big fan base and I will recommend your books to friends who have similar views. That is a big reason why I stick to Baen Books and browse the ebooks on amazon. I can find someone who takes a more realistic view of the future and alternative events than the unrealistic utopian settings from liberal authors. Those books can still be good but taken in small doses. I would hope that other authors could appreciate someone else's work regardless of political views and not try to hinder their success. Paperback price is not an obstacle to me if I think it is worth reading. If a publisher objects to a authors political views then they will loose money. Self publishing is getting easier so the publisher stands to loose when you can cut out the middle man.
Lloyd A Behm II
Well, since my great grandfather was horse whipped for not being white, I sometimes wonder where all this special treatment comes from.
Doug Harrell
I must be living under a rock, because until these postings, I have never, ever heard of Scalzi. Now I suppose I won't be able to go anywhere without seeing his books....but I certainly won't be buying any.
Andrew Greeson
I have to say i have read and enjoyed a few Scalzi books. But i have read and enjoyed everything that @[606840886:2048:John Ringo] @[1382260304:2048:Tom Kratman] @[100000028145065:2048:Larry Correia] Et Al have put out.The more I read about Scazi the less respect i have for him. Redshirts was a fun book , my wife and i read it and agreed but it really is not a Hugo worthy book. That said I will continue to buy read and enjoy your stuff . My respect for you guys and the things you have done in writing and life and with your military careers just keeps on growning.
Anthony B Pugh
I thought the 'Lowest Difficulty Setting' was pretty ridiculous. This is a straight white male lecturing about the inability of straight white males to recognize the privilege enjoyed by straight white males.
Brian Lee Gnad
=>Verhoven
He is one of those fellows whom I will have to exert a special effort to not kill out of hand if we ever meet. I will never forgive what he did to Sgt. Zim. Never.
He is one of those fellows whom I will have to exert a special effort to not kill out of hand if we ever meet. I will never forgive what he did to Sgt. Zim. Never.
Brian Lee Gnad
I have a friend who the first Ringo book he tried to read was Ghost. He loved the action, but could not deal with the porn so he never finished it. A few weeks ago I got his started on "A hymn before battle" and now he has burned through the whole series and now I've got him going on the "March" books.
Tammie Darden
I can, will and do choose what authors to read based on what I hear and see from them outside of their books. There is a writer that whose work I liked a lot, that I quit buying cold, after having to interact with him at Dragon. I found him to be an arrogant asshole and a bully.. OTOH there are writers who impressed me with their personalities at Liberty Con and I've been sampling their writing and been pleased with it. It's not that you have to agree with all my ideologies for me to like you...it's that you have to have manners and not act like a piss ant.
Jonathan Arter
@[10323488612:274:Lois McMaster Bujold] posted this explanation of the Hugo process: http://www.emcit.com/hugo_rules.shtml
Greg Dougherty
"Scalzi turned Pappy Jack Holloway from a self reliant, crusty gunfighter/prospector into a wimpy disbarred lawyer" WTF? So glad I stopped reading him before that came out.
Donna Woodka
Good lord, what idiotic tripe.
Randy Powell
Explains why I read your stuff, I guess. And re-read it.
Aaron Chappell
John, thanks for a look into the politics of the Military SF market. Also, I may have to make LibertyCon. After an experience with some local Con people (I dated one of their number) a few years ago....well.....let's just say I spend my free time in other venues with other people. Now, finding out that there's a Con that's geared towards a slightly different crowd I'm quite interested!
Jay Garmon
FYI, for those who would like to discuss these topics with Mr. Ringo in person, he'll be Author Guest of Honor at @[125329840094:274:Conglomeration Science Fiction Convention] 2014. http://www.conglomeration.info
Dianna Deeley
Oh, my. Hiding.
Richard D. Cartwright
Interesting take from a different direction on @[606840886:2048:John Ringo] 's thesis http://madelineashby.com/?p=1502
Doug Harrell
I've read a lot of SF off and on over the years. I used to read a lot of Asimov. Love his story-telling, but as I got to the end of the Foundation series, I remember feeling uneasy with how socialistic it got, and of course Asimov is an unabashed atheist, so now two strikes, and I didn't really read anymore after that.
I just read this-and-that for years, until I stumbled on David Drake, after picking up a used copy of Hammer's Slammers. I liked the grittiness, and the way his characters found strength to make it, and even somewhat the political pragmatism, which, while it didn't necessarily agree completely with my worldview, at least mocked the elites enough to be entertaining. I began reading (and purchasing new) all of his I could, but found myself between publishing dates and in need of more reading material.
Somewhere in there, I decided to try Weber's HH series, having seen so much about it as I bought Drake books, and seeing @[47083219158:274:Baen Books] Free Library. I dove in, and never stopped. I pretty much have every Weber book at this point, and am always waiting for the next one. In reading, I really felt Weber and I could be fast friends, as well. His worldview comes through pretty clearly, and is very close to mine. I can't really think of any differences. However, in the process, I stumbled into the middle of the Prince Roger series. When I realized what I was reading wasn't the first book, I went to find the first one, and couldn't.
Now by this time, I recognized how this type of series works: the established author comes up with a universe and an outline, and the newbie takes that and runs, so I knew what I was reading was essentially Ringo. and I *really* was entertained by the black humor, the characters, and what I perceived as the realism of the combat (not having any personal experience, but certainly found it comparable to Drake, who is said to be very realistic).
So now I went looking for more Ringo, and I ended up in Looking Glass. Being a physicist of sorts (Nuke E), I now enjoyed both that aspect, as well. From there was the Posleen, and never looked back. Check that, I avoided Ghost for a long time. Big mistake.
However, I have to say that what *really* drew me in was how many times I had to lower the book, and say to myself, "this guy thinks exactly like I do!" His politics, worldview, tastes, etc. I kept going to the other room and telling my wife, "it's too bad you don't like Sci-Fi, because you would *love* this guy!" It drew me in, and gave me no wrong impressions, as validated by the last couple of years here on FB.
Naturally, this has lead me to Kratman and MZW, and would have lead me to Correia (sp?) but his titles just haven't grabbed me enough. I typically stay away from monster-zombie type stuff, and am only in the middle of Under a Graveyard Sky right now because I *know* it will be zombies-done-right...plus all the maddening snippets! :-D
In any case, I now have 3 large storage bins packed *full* of Baen paperbacks, plus a few favorites on the shelf in my office, almost all purchased new, plus approximately an equal number of ebooks on my Nook, and I know the publishing dates of the next ones in all the series. Baen, Ringo, et al, will be getting a substantial chunk of my paycheck for years to come, if they just keep doing what they are doing.
All this to say, there are enough great authors out there whose worldview I find palatable, that I just can't bring myself to send any of *my* hard-earned money to anyone who, either in their stories or personally, turn my stomach. Sorry to jack your page for such a long diatribe, John, but I thought a view of the mind of a customer might be of interest. If it's any consolation, you're my favorite, and while I'm not much for cons, I'd love to buy you a beer one day.
I just read this-and-that for years, until I stumbled on David Drake, after picking up a used copy of Hammer's Slammers. I liked the grittiness, and the way his characters found strength to make it, and even somewhat the political pragmatism, which, while it didn't necessarily agree completely with my worldview, at least mocked the elites enough to be entertaining. I began reading (and purchasing new) all of his I could, but found myself between publishing dates and in need of more reading material.
Somewhere in there, I decided to try Weber's HH series, having seen so much about it as I bought Drake books, and seeing @[47083219158:274:Baen Books] Free Library. I dove in, and never stopped. I pretty much have every Weber book at this point, and am always waiting for the next one. In reading, I really felt Weber and I could be fast friends, as well. His worldview comes through pretty clearly, and is very close to mine. I can't really think of any differences. However, in the process, I stumbled into the middle of the Prince Roger series. When I realized what I was reading wasn't the first book, I went to find the first one, and couldn't.
Now by this time, I recognized how this type of series works: the established author comes up with a universe and an outline, and the newbie takes that and runs, so I knew what I was reading was essentially Ringo. and I *really* was entertained by the black humor, the characters, and what I perceived as the realism of the combat (not having any personal experience, but certainly found it comparable to Drake, who is said to be very realistic).
So now I went looking for more Ringo, and I ended up in Looking Glass. Being a physicist of sorts (Nuke E), I now enjoyed both that aspect, as well. From there was the Posleen, and never looked back. Check that, I avoided Ghost for a long time. Big mistake.
However, I have to say that what *really* drew me in was how many times I had to lower the book, and say to myself, "this guy thinks exactly like I do!" His politics, worldview, tastes, etc. I kept going to the other room and telling my wife, "it's too bad you don't like Sci-Fi, because you would *love* this guy!" It drew me in, and gave me no wrong impressions, as validated by the last couple of years here on FB.
Naturally, this has lead me to Kratman and MZW, and would have lead me to Correia (sp?) but his titles just haven't grabbed me enough. I typically stay away from monster-zombie type stuff, and am only in the middle of Under a Graveyard Sky right now because I *know* it will be zombies-done-right...plus all the maddening snippets! :-D
In any case, I now have 3 large storage bins packed *full* of Baen paperbacks, plus a few favorites on the shelf in my office, almost all purchased new, plus approximately an equal number of ebooks on my Nook, and I know the publishing dates of the next ones in all the series. Baen, Ringo, et al, will be getting a substantial chunk of my paycheck for years to come, if they just keep doing what they are doing.
All this to say, there are enough great authors out there whose worldview I find palatable, that I just can't bring myself to send any of *my* hard-earned money to anyone who, either in their stories or personally, turn my stomach. Sorry to jack your page for such a long diatribe, John, but I thought a view of the mind of a customer might be of interest. If it's any consolation, you're my favorite, and while I'm not much for cons, I'd love to buy you a beer one day.
Richard C Bateman
Hardcore Christian and hardcore fan, go figure.
Mark Davis Jr.
The annoying thing about living where I live (Lincoln, NE) is that the only con worth while around here is one that I'm not too tempted to go to, seeing as I generally have much better things going on. Like football, or camping, or going to the range. And that the other cons are hundreds of miles away. Stupid distances.
Also, keep up the good work @[606840886:2048:John], picked up "Under The Graveyard Skies" yesterday. Don't know when I'll have time to read it, but I'm excited.
Also, keep up the good work @[606840886:2048:John], picked up "Under The Graveyard Skies" yesterday. Don't know when I'll have time to read it, but I'm excited.
Jennifer Toplitz
Your Politics were obvious from the get go, (so were Heinlein's), but You have people of all types who do stuff well, and, my personal favorite, blow things up. Education, and intellectual curiosity is valued, people can be pragmatic, practical, competent, & compassionate, all in one package, and even when they aren't, still worthy of respect. When they are losers, they tend to die, but in deference to the whims of the Universe, sometimes they don't. A good many of my friends don't read your stuff, most of those who do, I handed them their first sample. Just live a long time, & write like there's no tomorrow, I hope you out live me.
James Reaves
I often disagree with your politics, John. But I like to think of myself as a Classical Liberal, rather than a Jacksonian. And the beauty of things is that we can disagree in a civil manner - unlike the Progressives.
My point is that I don't give a rat's ass what a writer's politics are; I read Orson Scott Card, and find much of his personal politics contemptible. I also read John Scalzi. And, of course, I read your books.
Here's the thing, though. I buy your books; eARC, hardcover and paperback. Scalzi and Card I get from the library. I may recommend Card (or even Scalzi) to someone. But I'll *give* them a copy of your book. And then go buy another to replace it. And it certainly isn't because of your politics, it's all about your product. Which is top-notch, usually. And, honestly, that's kind of what both our personal political theories come down to.
My point is that I don't give a rat's ass what a writer's politics are; I read Orson Scott Card, and find much of his personal politics contemptible. I also read John Scalzi. And, of course, I read your books.
Here's the thing, though. I buy your books; eARC, hardcover and paperback. Scalzi and Card I get from the library. I may recommend Card (or even Scalzi) to someone. But I'll *give* them a copy of your book. And then go buy another to replace it. And it certainly isn't because of your politics, it's all about your product. Which is top-notch, usually. And, honestly, that's kind of what both our personal political theories come down to.
Patti Foster
I read "Old Man's War" and enjoyed it. Read "Redshirts" kind of liked it.But some thing was just off about it.I've been thinking I may not read any more of his books.Have not made up my mind yet.Don't know what Scalzi has been saying.But if it goes against what @[606840886:2048:John Ringo] thinks,I do think the same as John.Then I may not be reading any more of his book.I find money talks.Votes not so much.Others control votes,as much as they can any way.
Paula Bunny Handley
@[606840886:2048:John], good read, and some very good points. I can probably appreciate this more than most, because I'm in close proximity to Ann Arbor MI (read: tree-hugging hippy-dippy democratic progressive liberal ville). Unfortunately, this has a large influence on the local conventions, and Scalzi is one of their "heroes". I just try to keep my head down and promote you and other conservative authors......
Charlie Stross
*The PROFESSIONAL market is dominated by Liberals. It is still heavily based in mid-town NYC and there are essentially no 'out of the closet' conservatives in the market.*
No conservatives? So Orson Scott Card isn't published by Tor, then?
Your whining isn't doing you any favours ...
No conservatives? So Orson Scott Card isn't published by Tor, then?
Your whining isn't doing you any favours ...
Paula Bunny Handley
Alex Von Der LInden, and quite a few "cranky white women" too. John has a large amount of female fans, more than folks seem to think. And before you go there, it's not his looks (although he is easy on the eyes), most of us are after his mind.
Chris Rutledge
@Charlie Stross - And your selective ignorance of what John is saying isn't doing *you* any favors either..
Patti Foster
@[1477786376:2048:Mystik Waboose] right.
Patti Foster
I don't like Card.
Geoff Hiten
My theory is any institution that outlives its founders gets taken over by professional liberals. These professionals seek to have a guaranteed income and authority. MADD, SFWA, PEW Trust, Heinz Foundation, etc. all either outlived their original intent or were subverted when their founders left and have been turned into yet another liberal fiefdom. Scalzi and his ilk are just the ones who happened to do this to SFWA. Interesting to watch, but it doesn't really concern me.
My reason for not reading Scalzi isn't his politics, it is because he isn't entertaining. I work too hard for my beer money to waste it on authors who do not entertain me.
My reason for not reading Scalzi isn't his politics, it is because he isn't entertaining. I work too hard for my beer money to waste it on authors who do not entertain me.
Mike Wilson
Enjoyed the parenthetical ref to Meade. And, you're right Wilsonians are tribal and won't admit it. And for the record, I am not related or part of the tribe.
Thomas Monaghan
So Charlie your fellow SFWA's authors have been trashing Card for months or don't you keep up with them. I also like the way you "I am not going to the worldcon this year. It's in San Antonio, Texas (not my favourite part of the United States)" you slyly trash Texas.
Doug Harrell
P.S. Sorry for the huge re-edit above. Got a fire call in the middle, after accidentally hitting 'Enter' instead of Shift-Enter, and had to wait until I got back to finish the edit.
BTW, I've been a volunteer firefighter/EMT for 25 years now, and I've often felt that, while it is not military or combat, it *is* paramilitary, and I see a lot of similarities. We respond to horrible situations, cut broken bodies out of destroyed vehicles, get covered in blood and gore, and we call what we do 'combat', and charge into potentially deadly situations, sometimes for questionable reasons (is anyone still in the house, or am I risking my life just for someone's stuff that is already heat and smoke damaged anyway?) . What is missing, is that our battle is only against forces of nature, which, while fire can seem to have a mind of its own, and even to be "evil" at times, cannot be the same thing as facing another human who is trying to kill you. Nor is being faced with destroyed bodies the same as actually doing the destroying. The mental and emotional aspects of that must be quite different. I'd love to hear from some of you who have experience at both on your thoughts about it. Surely some vets/firefighters here somewhere?
BTW, I've been a volunteer firefighter/EMT for 25 years now, and I've often felt that, while it is not military or combat, it *is* paramilitary, and I see a lot of similarities. We respond to horrible situations, cut broken bodies out of destroyed vehicles, get covered in blood and gore, and we call what we do 'combat', and charge into potentially deadly situations, sometimes for questionable reasons (is anyone still in the house, or am I risking my life just for someone's stuff that is already heat and smoke damaged anyway?) . What is missing, is that our battle is only against forces of nature, which, while fire can seem to have a mind of its own, and even to be "evil" at times, cannot be the same thing as facing another human who is trying to kill you. Nor is being faced with destroyed bodies the same as actually doing the destroying. The mental and emotional aspects of that must be quite different. I'd love to hear from some of you who have experience at both on your thoughts about it. Surely some vets/firefighters here somewhere?
Ben Quasnitschka
@[606840886:2048:John Ringo] I consider myself a pretty hardcore liberal, and I enjoy your books. Maybe I'm an outlier. Maybe it's because I'm a military brat. I don't know. I do think that guns belong in the hands of people who are trained and responsible, and an eight hour course strikes me as not enough. I'd rather there be regular courses (like professionals who have to take CEUs) to be able to own a gun, and membership in the military or police would defer that requirement for as long as you were a member.
Brad Handley
Stig, FYI It was not that long ago that some fool in the SWFA sent a new author information on how they were deliberately excluding him from the Best New Writer Category. Oops.
@[606840886:2048:John] Paladin of Shadows did not lose you as many Christian fans as you think. I actually used your section on safe calls as an opening to talk to my niece (age 18) because her parents would never talk to her about that.
So this Christian not only has the books and encourages new readers, (It is a great literary expose into the sex trafficking/sex slavery), this Christian is using it as a basis to have cross generational sex ed talks.
@[606840886:2048:John] Paladin of Shadows did not lose you as many Christian fans as you think. I actually used your section on safe calls as an opening to talk to my niece (age 18) because her parents would never talk to her about that.
So this Christian not only has the books and encourages new readers, (It is a great literary expose into the sex trafficking/sex slavery), this Christian is using it as a basis to have cross generational sex ed talks.
Paul Johnson
Best soapbox rant on Scalzi I've ever read, and I, as an audiobook judge, have written a few myself. His "Metatropolis" series was a complete utopian political rant collection of bullshit and his audiobook versions of this tried to capitalize on using Star Trek actors as narrators to sell his message (didn't get Shatner - probably because he's conservative). It was a cheap marketing trick and only proved that TV actors don't always make great narrators.
What Scalzi lacks in his writing, that is a common trait of anyone even partially good at writing science fiction, is a sense of humility in regards to the future. Most writers give you a sense that they are asking you, without saying so, to bear with their ignorance of the future and accept their hypothesis in the following tale. Scalzi doesn't write like this. Instead, everything has to be "just so" and WILL be "just so" and it is all the fault of the Republican Party. He's written some "light" science fiction that was fun, like "Agent to the Stars", with good narration by Will Wheaton, but he falls flat on anything attempting greatness.
What Scalzi lacks in his writing, that is a common trait of anyone even partially good at writing science fiction, is a sense of humility in regards to the future. Most writers give you a sense that they are asking you, without saying so, to bear with their ignorance of the future and accept their hypothesis in the following tale. Scalzi doesn't write like this. Instead, everything has to be "just so" and WILL be "just so" and it is all the fault of the Republican Party. He's written some "light" science fiction that was fun, like "Agent to the Stars", with good narration by Will Wheaton, but he falls flat on anything attempting greatness.
Paul Johnson
@charlie. Card is a hybrid of liberal and conservative ideas as he is a Deacon in the Mormon Church and not someone fitting in the same box that John has painted himself in.
John Ringo
@[1490660818:2048:Brian Lee Gnad] On Verhoven: It's why he's said he'll never do another SF movie. He is still living under the equivalent of a death fatwa. Which simply reinforces his opinion but who gives a rat's ass?
Brian Lee Gnad
Who was it who said something along the lines of "The despite of the despicable, is as worthy as the admiration of the admirable" ?? I will happily accept his despite! Thanks for letting me know the rest of the story.
Niko DePofi
Well said. I read "Redshirts," it was funny, and at times clever, but the essays afterwards were torture to read. I do wish you'd come up with a sequel for "Last Centurion" though ;)
John Ringo
@[528863866:2048:Charlie Stross] Bit off on one term. Should have said 'the business.' Tom Doherty is not a conservative. Touch libertarian but generally he describes himself (when he does) as a liberal. More what I call 'neoliberal.' Doesn't matter to his business. He publishes anyone who sells. So does Baen but @[713869359:2048:Toni Weisskopf] is a conservative. Find me one outspoken 'Tea Party' conservative (to put it in terms you understand) in the business who works in midtown and makes decisions about SF buys and marketing. I'd say 'I'll wait' but there's no real point. There isn't one. Lucille from Pocket? Hah. Sherry from DAW? Giggle. Find one. They don't exist. Even the head of Regenery is an Obama voter. She just listens to conservative advisors (who used to be with Regenery and moved on) on what to buy.
As to 'not doing myself any favors', those people all have essentially zero power over my real sales. Otherwise I'd never have gone anywhere. My politics were on my sleeve from day one. They think they do but they don't. B&N buys on the basis of prior sales and bit of fiddly on the part of the buyer. Ditto Amazon. The 'fiddly' might be part of 'you're not doing yourself any favors' but I KNOW THE BUYERS. And they know me. I know their politics. They know mine. And because they are not PEOPLE like Scalzi, even if they have similar politics, we get along pretty damned well. (The same cannot be said for much of the marketing group at S&S by the way. They really dislike me.) Their politics are aside. I especially like the buyer for B&N. I can talk to the guy all day long including about politics without it being a furball.
Sorry. Disagree. This thread has no negative influence at all. If you actually think 'social media' has any effect on market then here's the primary datum: Since I posted that diatribe I may have lost some 'friends'. I can't tell because I've gained fifty. Some of those are 'dark horses' (that's been obvious in this thread) but most have been people who agreed with the essential premise.
Still going strong.
As to 'not doing myself any favors', those people all have essentially zero power over my real sales. Otherwise I'd never have gone anywhere. My politics were on my sleeve from day one. They think they do but they don't. B&N buys on the basis of prior sales and bit of fiddly on the part of the buyer. Ditto Amazon. The 'fiddly' might be part of 'you're not doing yourself any favors' but I KNOW THE BUYERS. And they know me. I know their politics. They know mine. And because they are not PEOPLE like Scalzi, even if they have similar politics, we get along pretty damned well. (The same cannot be said for much of the marketing group at S&S by the way. They really dislike me.) Their politics are aside. I especially like the buyer for B&N. I can talk to the guy all day long including about politics without it being a furball.
Sorry. Disagree. This thread has no negative influence at all. If you actually think 'social media' has any effect on market then here's the primary datum: Since I posted that diatribe I may have lost some 'friends'. I can't tell because I've gained fifty. Some of those are 'dark horses' (that's been obvious in this thread) but most have been people who agreed with the essential premise.
Still going strong.
John Ringo
On the 'lost some people due to Ghost and PoW', this is anecdotal due to emails I received when those books were coming out. it's worth remembering that I published Ghost in September or Oct., PoW in November or Dec. and Kildar around Feb. During that time I got alot of emails and posts to the board I had at the time from both evangelicals (over the morality issues with Ghost) and atheists (don't shove your religion down my throat.) And my total sales jumped hugely. (At least for the Ghost series.) Especially in 'fly over' country which was why I joked 'They read ALOT OF PORN in Kansas.'
Niko DePofi
I need to read PoW ...
Michael Holts
I read and liked OMW but when I read his blog, I decided not to give Scalzi any more money. I worked too hard for it to give to someone who thinks I'm scum (conservative/libertarian).
Martin McKenzie
I love a good pissing match, what started this?
William Bacon
@Niko DePofi: I'd lend my copy but there's the geographic gulf and having to dig it out of storage. I wholly recommend it, with that being said.
Jennifer Toplitz
I had to go back and reread the original 'Little Fuzzy' in order to recognize the characters again. I tend to remember what I read, I would give a lot to Not to have read Scalzi's version. I forced myself to finish it in the hope it was all a bad dream. Alas, No.
Lloyd Wiebe
@Brian Lee Gnad, On Verhovan, Killing him out of hand is far far too kind for the likes of him... I have much more inventive and long lasting ways for him to learn about "Pacificism."
Kevin Stall
I admit I felt a little uncomfortable with some of the scenes in Ghost, but I still loved the series. It's like swearing, It doesn't bother me when someone swears but I never do. I can read something that doesn't agree with my faith but I don't have to let that stop me reading it. I actually love alot of your political view point, especially Last Centurion. Though I think you had the NHS wrong in it. WHile I am not a big fan of them, they were very efficient in dealing with the last major flu outbreak. They practically forced us high risk patennt to get our shots. And they actually have am organisation set up along the lines as you describe being needed. Now if it's surgery being needed, forget them. Had my knee replaced, they cut the nerve, broke my leg and they send me home to walk on an unattached foot for 3 months. Had a stroke, they told me to source my own MRI as their machines only fit the small English person, not an american at 6'5".
Dennis Grace
No. Scalzi is no longer president of SFWA. His term is up. Steven Gould is president, now. And it's been called SFWA since its inception. The name change (twenty years ago) from Science Fiction Writers of America to Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America did not entail a change in the abbreviation.
Matthew Randolph
At the risk of causing a flame war SFWA is not made up of professional writers. They are at best semi-pro or hobby level authors. Writing is a second or a third source of income for most SFWA members.
John Edward Bartley
SFWA volk are also political for the benefit of their tribe as all get-out.
May I suggest an improvement in semantics and terminology? There are Libtards, and there are Churchillian Liberals. Not that Churchill was infallible, but he had guts.
May I suggest an improvement in semantics and terminology? There are Libtards, and there are Churchillian Liberals. Not that Churchill was infallible, but he had guts.
Frank Ney
And when Verhoven shuffles off to the hell he deserves, they'd better put him in an unmarked grave or his coffin will float away on a sea of urine.
Declan Finn
I went looking for you on twitter, found a twit from Mr. Scalzi. "@Jringo1508 Searched for your account. Found this: RT Scalzi: "If you dig passive-aggressive concern trolling, I mean REALLY dig it, this is your John Ringo jam for the day." He then linked to this FB note.
Isn't it nice when the pricks bitch about being picked on? It warms my heart.
Isn't it nice when the pricks bitch about being picked on? It warms my heart.
Keith Glass
Charlie Stross: Allow me a quick lesson in American English: "Dominated"<>"Entirely".
One major exception does not invalidate a general rule of thumb. . ..
One major exception does not invalidate a general rule of thumb. . ..
Brad Smith
Never read a Ringo novel before. Now, after reading the prick's childish rant, I won't.
Brad Handley
Brad, your loss. I check out both sides of the equation. I think Last Centurion just moved to the top of my enjoy again list.
Keith Glass
Brad Smith: Please illuminate me: what was childish ?? And why is a discussion of markets and how not to irritate them a "rant" ?? Unless, of course, you assume that because John is conservative-to-libertarian, he's automatically "extreme", and thus all communications are "rants". . .
Declan Finn
Brad: please, don't read Ringo's books. The collective IQ of his entire readership thanks you.
Jason Bieber
I really liked Scalzi's One Man's War and Ghost Brigades. I basically gave up with The Last Colony, because it was blindingly obvious that he was trying to shift his entire readership away from the Glenn Reynolds Instapundit paradigm (which got him his sales numbers to begin with) because they weren't "his kind of people." The entire storyarc shifted from one of warfare-as-survival to something schmaltzy about global/transtellar alliances. I could hear the gears of deus ex machina turning in the background, and it wasn't pretty.
From there, I checked his website out. It wasn't so much his politics that bothered me, it was how he viewed the rest of the world who did not follow his worldview. He HATED them. Ergo, he hated me, and many others, simply because we might have differing views about warfare, guns, gender rights, geopolitics, economics, etc. And even more than that, he was SMUG in his dislike. When it comes to the actual market, Scalzi doesn't get it, at all.
From there, I checked his website out. It wasn't so much his politics that bothered me, it was how he viewed the rest of the world who did not follow his worldview. He HATED them. Ergo, he hated me, and many others, simply because we might have differing views about warfare, guns, gender rights, geopolitics, economics, etc. And even more than that, he was SMUG in his dislike. When it comes to the actual market, Scalzi doesn't get it, at all.
Keith Glass
Jason Bieber: As I said earlier, I've met Scalzi, when he lived in DC Metro. I'd call him an a-hole. . .but that orifice has a use. Smug doesn't even start to cover it. . .
Jason Bieber
Keith Glass, in 10 years from now, no one will remember Scalzi other than "that guy who wrote Old Man's War" while Ringo will still be writing up a storm. :P
Keith Glass
John Scalzi: the Peter Frampton of SF. . . (evil grin)
Tina Black
John, Scalzi has not been SFWA president for at LEAST two administrations! And this con policy thing has come about within the last year. Please try not to argue by mixing them.
Jason Bieber
Two administrations? He stepped down in July this year.
Tina Black
Still not his job at the time of this article.
Jason Bieber
Goalpost shift, Tina.
Tina Black
Part of the conflation is that some older male members of SFWA were very dismissive of female colleagues. Now iin SF this is nothing new. Brian Aldiss used to be notoriously mysogynistic. There was a whole crew that used some pretty disgusting language to show thoer disapproval of skirts, and the current wave of similar stuff in the Bulletin made some folks Real Unhappy. OK, they reacted in a way designed to make JR go nuts -- Politically Correct hardly begins to define the reaction. Sigh.
Jason Bieber
Tina, go read the article above, and tell me wherein Ringo's actual post, is he discussing what you're trying to shift the topic towards. He's really using Scalzi et al as a point about markets, and market culture based on politics. You're not.
Again: stick to the argument and stop trying to shift goalposts.
Again: stick to the argument and stop trying to shift goalposts.
Tina Black
Whoops Jason -- I slitered a former into the lineup. Mea culpa.
Keith Glass
Tina Black: Mea Culpa indeed. Gentlemen, bring out the Salmon of Correction. . .
Tina Black
Atlantic salmon only, please! I'm an East Coast sorta person.
Tina Black
Jason, here is the Money Paragraph: "Scalzi is president of SFWA (sort of the writer's union for SF authors) or whatever they're calling it this week. As president instead of, oh, I dunno, working to get better generalized terms for new authors, ensuring contracts are upheld with publishers, maybe, someday, getting a fucking health care insurer for all us authors who don't have health insurance, he'd been concentrating on IMPORTANT matters like making sure all characters were called s/he and women weren't being harassed at cons (which happens and is up to the convention people to manage) and... The list of 'not-core-issue' kerfuffles he's been involved in as president makes you think hes' president of ACORN not an SF union. And it was not only driving out members (or they were expelling members for 'bad-speak') it was making the group as irrelevant as the opinion of an abyssal nematode."
Tina Black
There is even a Timeline of Controversies blog listed on Google!
Jason Bieber
Ringo's point is that the SFWA is a closed loop society in which certain norms are accepted by an oligarchy, and there is no due process to determine what constitutes normative value (yay or nay). Also, his point is that the larger non Baen (or Tor) manhattanite community of SF/Fantasy publishers don't like anyone who doesn't publish their "style." Ie; writers like Scalzi are writing for editors with pre-determined audiences. Writers like Ringo are writing for audiences, period.
Tina Black
And yet Weber publishes with Tor.
Jason Bieber
Tina, Ringo mentions that in the comments :D
Tina Black
BTW -- I may be missing one @[606840886:2048:John Ringo] book, but only one ( a Looking Glass because I can never remember which of the last 2 I am missing) -- and I have quite a number doubled up as e-book and tree-book that did not come off disks. If I double a book I can lend it out, and I have a cop friend who adores them. I am part of his market -- but the cop and I are registered Independents, and not that easy to pigeonhole.
Chris Smith
To borrow from Dave Freer- if straight white male is life on the lowest difficulty setting, where does a straight white male author who writes fiction that doesnt challenge the current mainstream political norm, and bases an entire novel on established, long standing genre tropes fall? especially if, while president of the guild, said author tends to fall in line with the major publisher's official standpoint on business related issues?
Robert Ernest Richter
Actually, you know what? I'm part of the core market you lost, in that "guy who just thinks guns are kinda neat" group. I used to wish Star Trek would have more battle scenes, read military SF pretty much constantly, spent most of my teenage and adult life in a love affair with Battletech, and so on.
But here's the thing. I also kind of think science is neat and that genocide is wrong and that the absurd Strawman Politicals that pepper your more recent (and by "more recent" I mean "since September 2001") efforts really damage the quality of your work.
I think it's great that you're still finding commercial success, but I'm done reading your books, let alone buying or recommending them.
Now here's the thing. Scalzi didn't become a successful SF writer despite his political beliefs. His success stems from his blog, where he's always been very open about what he thinks. Most people that read his stuff already agree with him about most things, and aren't about to quit reading books they like because their author thinks women and poor people are, you know, people who deserve human dignity and shit.
But here's the thing. I also kind of think science is neat and that genocide is wrong and that the absurd Strawman Politicals that pepper your more recent (and by "more recent" I mean "since September 2001") efforts really damage the quality of your work.
I think it's great that you're still finding commercial success, but I'm done reading your books, let alone buying or recommending them.
Now here's the thing. Scalzi didn't become a successful SF writer despite his political beliefs. His success stems from his blog, where he's always been very open about what he thinks. Most people that read his stuff already agree with him about most things, and aren't about to quit reading books they like because their author thinks women and poor people are, you know, people who deserve human dignity and shit.
Chris Smith
"(and by more recent i mean since September 2001)"
So...all of them, then?
And I'm a bit confused- are you suggesting that, as opposed to JS, that JR thinks women and poor people aren't human? Because that didn't come up in this post. In fact, has been covered in other posts, and JR clearly states that he has a lot of respect for both groups. Different ideas on how to handle the issues of harassment and poverty, but nothing that would suggest classism or misogyny.
You're pretty new at this whole "reading comprehension" thing, aren't you?
So...all of them, then?
And I'm a bit confused- are you suggesting that, as opposed to JS, that JR thinks women and poor people aren't human? Because that didn't come up in this post. In fact, has been covered in other posts, and JR clearly states that he has a lot of respect for both groups. Different ideas on how to handle the issues of harassment and poverty, but nothing that would suggest classism or misogyny.
You're pretty new at this whole "reading comprehension" thing, aren't you?
Joseph Capdepon II
I love the cry babies like Robert Ernest Richter. I doubt you've ever read a John Ringo novel. Please illuminate us on the ones you did read and what they are about. No cheating now, don't go to Amazon.
Brad Handley
Joseph you are correct. John's fist novel was in 2000. In 2001, John had 2 novels printed.
Hence Robert is a probably another ignorant troll. And what I find Ironic is that the series that liberals bemoan is Paladin of Shadows. The POS Series is actually an expose on White Slavery and Sex Trafficking and it is not very hostile to the traffickers.
Hence Robert is a probably another ignorant troll. And what I find Ironic is that the series that liberals bemoan is Paladin of Shadows. The POS Series is actually an expose on White Slavery and Sex Trafficking and it is not very hostile to the traffickers.
Emerson Ford
Methinks Robby Richter has his Johns confused...
Joseph Capdepon II
I think he is just a fanboy of Scalzi and he thought he could hurt Herr Ringo's feelings or something.
Dexter Guptill
@[100000156813403:2048:Brad], that "not very hostile to the traffickers" sounds like, possibly, a typo? Considering that in the PoShadows series, they get shot, burned, shredded, crushed, poisoned, infected, and all kinds of other grisly and well-deserved fates...
Keith Glass
Joseph Capdepon II: Gee, TRY to hurt John's feelings, and he'll laugh all the way to the bank. . . .PLUS he's got Ms. Miriam, who comes in on the 1-to 10 scale somewhere around 12.3. . .
William Lehman
damn I love John's turn of phrase!
Chris Smith
Something hit me today- this year's Hugo nominees included two women and a member of an ethnic minority, correct? And who did it go to?
I don't remember a post about declining the nomination of the award, so Mr. 'life on the easiest difficulty setting' seems perfectly happy to reap the benefits of his 'privilege', while bemoaning that same privilege?
Isn't there a word for that?
I don't remember a post about declining the nomination of the award, so Mr. 'life on the easiest difficulty setting' seems perfectly happy to reap the benefits of his 'privilege', while bemoaning that same privilege?
Isn't there a word for that?
Keith Glass
Chris Smith: Methinks it needs a SPECIAL term: hypocrite at the "Scalzi" difficulty setting. . .
Andrew Stallings
@[606840886:2048:John Ringo]: Just got sent to this note while catching up on fandom wanks, of which you inadvertently became a part of when this stuff Scalzi came up. I don't really care about the politics of the authors I read; it's only relevant to me when they truly hork me off or take positions that I wouldn't countenance a dog taking.
So if you wouldn't mind answering this one question for me, I'd appreciate it. Do you agree to all or the majority of the viewpoints of Theodore Beale, aka Vox Day?
So if you wouldn't mind answering this one question for me, I'd appreciate it. Do you agree to all or the majority of the viewpoints of Theodore Beale, aka Vox Day?
Greg Dougherty
Tina: " There was a whole crew that used some pretty disgusting language to show thoer disapproval of skirts, and the current wave of similar stuff in the Bulletin made some folks Real Unhappy." Really? you mean phrases like "Lady editor"? Oh, the horror! Pointing out that someone was a female editor at a time when she had to be twice as good to get teh same credit! The horror!
Phil Sevetson
As a (Churchillian? At least Humphreyite) Liberal, I approve this rant. Also, I read John's books (well, most of them, there's a few I haven't gotten 'round to yet) and enjoy the violence.
Smurph Murph
John, I became aware of this 'issue' from AR15.com. Good to see someone standing up for us Jacksonians. I can't wait for the next book!
John Price
People who like the EBR (Evil Black Rifle) and John Ringo are good folks. :) As a member of AR15.com and a Tanker holder there, I try to spread the word on John's books.
Drew Friesen
I picked up Ghost (my first @[606840886:2048:John Ringo] book) about 5 years ago. About a third of the way thru at lunch the next day, a stranger asked me what I was reading because I was laughing so hard! (May have been a little further - i believe it was the "no, you cannot be Flower" part :)
Anyways, an older guy asked me what I was reading and I showed him. To describe the book, I said it was something like James Bond without a censor, and how true did that turn out to be!!! It turned out he was a veteran of both WW II and Korea and said it must be a good book,cause he hadn't had a laugh like that from something he read in ages... What could I do? I gave him the book; I was heading to @[1349166677:2048:Joseph-Beth Booksellers] after work anyways. I new at that point I needed to buy out John Ringo's section, and order whatever they didn't have. (Thanks to @[714658190:2048:Brian Delambre], the section was fairly complete!) A week later I was having lunch in the same spot, reading Gust Front, and ran into the Vet. I had given my first copy of Ghost to. He walked up behind me, slapped me on the shoulder, sat down at my table, and we ended up talking about Ghost and Kildar until I was going to be late for work.
That was the first copy of Ghost I gave away, and this last month, I gave away the 16th! As a litmus test, for the younger crowd, I use Boondock Saints and Archer; and for the older crowd, I just say this is a story without a filter, if that sounds good, have at it.
I have now given away 16 copies of Ghost (and several copies of A Hymn Before Battle and Through the Looking Glass) and have never been thanked so much for anything in my life!
P.S. All copies were paperback authorized editions (but I did buy almost half at Half-Priced Books cause, come on, I'm on a budget)
Anyways, an older guy asked me what I was reading and I showed him. To describe the book, I said it was something like James Bond without a censor, and how true did that turn out to be!!! It turned out he was a veteran of both WW II and Korea and said it must be a good book,cause he hadn't had a laugh like that from something he read in ages... What could I do? I gave him the book; I was heading to @[1349166677:2048:Joseph-Beth Booksellers] after work anyways. I new at that point I needed to buy out John Ringo's section, and order whatever they didn't have. (Thanks to @[714658190:2048:Brian Delambre], the section was fairly complete!) A week later I was having lunch in the same spot, reading Gust Front, and ran into the Vet. I had given my first copy of Ghost to. He walked up behind me, slapped me on the shoulder, sat down at my table, and we ended up talking about Ghost and Kildar until I was going to be late for work.
That was the first copy of Ghost I gave away, and this last month, I gave away the 16th! As a litmus test, for the younger crowd, I use Boondock Saints and Archer; and for the older crowd, I just say this is a story without a filter, if that sounds good, have at it.
I have now given away 16 copies of Ghost (and several copies of A Hymn Before Battle and Through the Looking Glass) and have never been thanked so much for anything in my life!
P.S. All copies were paperback authorized editions (but I did buy almost half at Half-Priced Books cause, come on, I'm on a budget)
Drew Friesen
When @[606840886:2048:John Ringo] mentioned the markets, and how he upped book sales while "narrowing" readership, I thought of how many copies of just Ghost I'd given away over the years. John Ringo, you can worry about the press if you want, but you honestly don't have to. Your readers follow you from series to series because of your voice, views, humor; and, of course, for putting a little science back into science fiction.
Write on!
Write on!
Oleg Alexander Degtyarev
I'll weigh in...somebody, I don't even remember who, gave me "Old Man's War" and - whatever the follow on to that book was. Now, you have to understand, I am one of those people that will READ anything...especially on deployment. I'll read month old newspapers that somebody's care package stuff was wrapped in...but I had one HELL of a time finishing "Old Man's War", and I kept picking up the second one reading a few pages and giving up. Last I saw of those two books, they laid around on the "give-a-book, take-a-book" counter in the squadron for months, because nobody else got more than a few pages into them.
I've picked up some stuff by Scalzi in the stores, read a little of them, and put them back on the shelf.
On the other hand, if there is anything of John's I haven't read - ah, scratch that. I gave up on the Council Wars Series. Everything else, other than the Council Wars, I've read-and re-read...
John Scalzi is/was head of the SWFA - my take on THAT is that the SFWA used to publish a series called "Year's Best Science Fiction" as selected by the SFWA. I've never been impressed by those books, and never purhased one...I think my feeling was that "if this is what the SFWA thinks is "good Science Fiction" - then I want no part of it.
and Brad Handley - HOW can you say that the Kildar is "not very hostile to the traffickers"? Lessee, shot, burned, stabbed, crushed, poisoned, thrown to sharks a piece at a time...all of which I highly approve of. NOT, of course, that any Military Force I was ever associated with did things like interfere with drug or sex traffickers, no, never happened. (hands in pocket, innocent look)
I've picked up some stuff by Scalzi in the stores, read a little of them, and put them back on the shelf.
On the other hand, if there is anything of John's I haven't read - ah, scratch that. I gave up on the Council Wars Series. Everything else, other than the Council Wars, I've read-and re-read...
John Scalzi is/was head of the SWFA - my take on THAT is that the SFWA used to publish a series called "Year's Best Science Fiction" as selected by the SFWA. I've never been impressed by those books, and never purhased one...I think my feeling was that "if this is what the SFWA thinks is "good Science Fiction" - then I want no part of it.
and Brad Handley - HOW can you say that the Kildar is "not very hostile to the traffickers"? Lessee, shot, burned, stabbed, crushed, poisoned, thrown to sharks a piece at a time...all of which I highly approve of. NOT, of course, that any Military Force I was ever associated with did things like interfere with drug or sex traffickers, no, never happened. (hands in pocket, innocent look)
